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RARB/CASA Forums • View topic - A Cappella Innovations

A Cappella Innovations

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Postby playdeep » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:40 pm

Not to make this thread too much about the Crosbys choices, but I will comment that myself and one other judges outside of the NXIVM group called the hotel ,and independently of one another, confirmed that the damage done to the room was more than wrappers and fast food. The accounts of carbonated drinks sprayed all over, fire extinguishers released and urine and feces being dispersed are not rumors.

Much remains to be seen. The Crosbys did email myself and some others to appologize. This is a step in the right direction so I thank them for this. It was frustrating when I heard of the condition of the rooms after I personally pulled aside two of the Crosbys and asked them to call me if they wanted to vent their concerns and frustrations, I havent received a call to that effect yet either. The two I spoke to did not make it sound like they were concerned enough to trash a room or that their frustrations were worth them trying to talk others into leaving; as I have heard from other groups present. So I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. But the Crosbys dont have precedence on their side, so we will see. I also think that those who did the damage will need to come forward also personally. If the Crosbys in question are not to blame, it is rather hard to understand how people staying in those room(s) could miss people causing much more grotesque damage without their knowledge.

After having spoken to Clare at length and going into the next festival, I believe more strongly that changes will be made that will clear up the concerns and the discomfort people might have felt this past weekend. She was very willing as always to hear me and my concerns and critiques of how we can make this event the best it can be. Till then, we can look for responses on the intent and motivations for Keith and Clare putting on this event in their own words.
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Postby sparkleytone » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:07 pm

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Postby nicki clyne » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:10 pm

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Postby jthelegend » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:17 pm

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Postby appbigcountry » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:00 pm

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Postby acageek » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:00 pm

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Postby brianhaverkate » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:55 pm

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Postby playdeep » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:00 pm

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Postby mikey10101 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:22 pm

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Postby davebaumgartner » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:23 pm

Hi everyone!

My apologies for not contributing to this post sooner, but I've been playing catch-up since this past weekend in Albany.

In the interest of full disclosure, my travel expenses for the event were paid for by the organizers. No worries however... I left the bedroom only slightly full of my feces.

I want to address a couple of issues that have been brought up in previous posts.


1) The judging panel

People continue to bring up the "randomness" of the selection of judges at the event, even questioning the reasons for including people like Allison Mack, Nicki Clyne and Michael McMillian, who (to paraphrase) "have no business judging a cappella".

This kind of closed-minded, xenophobic attitude is largely what's responsible for keeping a cappella a small, insular community that will never go "mainstream".

I had the privilege of being on the panel with Michael (for a day) and Allison (for two days). We were also joined by a Maude Baum (choreographer), Elizabeth Philips (opera and a cappella singer), Valerie McCaffrey (a casting agent), Phillip Hamilton (performer), as well as a cappella regulars Joesph Bates and Ben Stevens.

While some of the judges' usefulness is self-evident, I want to talk for a moment about Michael and Allison. They offered incredibly insightful and useful comments and suggestions, focusing less on the sheer musicality of a group, and instead helping the groups to better understand how to sell a performance. They encouraged the singers to think about what the lyrics mean, consider how best to deliver them, think about movement choices. They used their acting experience to help the soloists better express the emotions of the songs they were singing. They also offered a refreshing positive attitude which helped to soften the blows from the blunt criticism that Joseph, Ben and I became so good at giving out.

I'd like to say that I can now consider both Michael and Allison to be friends of mine, and it's upsetting to see Allison directly and Michael indirectly put down for their seeming irrelevance to the a cappella scene. Also a side note, as far as I know, Michael has never taken any of the ESP/NXIVM classes, and didn't even know what it was. Kinda shoots a hole in the theory of ESP filling the judging panel with actual experts, and then random famous "cult members".

I don't care if someone is a long-time a cappella singer, actor, choreographer, or ice cream truck driver. The point of the judging was to get as many perspectives and as much constructive criticism as possible, and the groups should have been honored to be coached by actors with Michael's and Allison's resumes.


2) ESP/NXIVM's involvement with the weekend

I was picked up from the airport by a guy named Charlie. Charlie needed to swing by "the center" (ESP's building) to pick up some drums he'd had shipped there. We showed up, went in, and I met three different people who had nothing to do with the AcI weekend, didn't know who I was, and didn't try to talk to me at all about ESP/NXIVM. If ever I were expecting a sales pitch, it would be when arriving at the office of the organization that people are claiming may be trying to actively recruit new members.

Charlie and I talked a lot. We spent hours and hours together driving to and from events, we both had rooms at the same place (the farm where Claire used to practice jumping), and we jammed a bunch both offstage and on throughout the weekend. How many times did he bring up ESP/NXIVM? Almost none. It was only referenced when he would explain how he knew somebody. He never tried to convince me to take classes or sign up, and only really discussed it when I asked questions.

On Sunday afternoon, I had lunch with Clare, Allison, and Michael Eldredge. All of them have been involved with ESP/NXIVM in some capacity, and yet none of them discussed it at all until I asked what it was all about. When I asked, they simply explained the general idea of the program and what it did for them personally. They didn't pressure me to sign up for classes, say I'd be missing out if I didn't get involved, or try to trick me into sacrificing a goat before I got to the airport.


3) Meeting the scary scary cult leader and his minions

So I met Keith on Sunday night at the after party, and noticed some things.

a) He's really smart.
b) People, specifically those involved in ESP/NXIVM seem to really enjoy spending time with him, talking to him, and hearing what he has to say.
c) Some seem a little obsessed with him.
d) He asks a lot of questions.
e) He seems to genuinely care and be curious about a cappella, wanting to figure out how to make the next AcI more successful, and have people walk away much happier.

a,b,d, and e all seem like no big deal to me. c is a bit off-putting sometimes, but quite frankly, there are lots of people obsessed with other people. I saw a member of the public who was very very interested in the chance to meet one of the celebrities, to the point of having to be asked to leave the event by security. I've seen people in this community freak out over meeting members of Rockapella.

To me, it all seems relative. A person or group of people who are extra-interested in what someone has to say does not, in my mind, automatically equal cult.

As a matter of fact, most of what I saw and heard about does not add up to cult-like behavior.


4) Social Security Numbers, Private Information, and Poop, oh my!

At the very beginning of the day's events on Saturday, Keith got up on stage to welcome everybody to AcI, tell them a bit about what was going to be happening, and take a moment to explain an important part of how the day would progress. He informed everyone that they would probably be asked some personal questions, and he understood that could lead to some discomfort. So, he said please feel free to decline to answer any question or provide any information that makes you even the slightest bit uncomfortable. Likewise, please do not pressure others to give any information that they're uncomfortable sharing, or to pressure anyone into doing anything.

I understand that students are not always willing to stand up for themselves for fear of being ostracized, but if somebody was unhappy, they could have left. Nobody was stopping them, nobody was taunting them, there was nothing holding anyone at the event.

Using personal information and experiences to help groups connect to each other does not, on the surface, seem like a bad thing to me. It's only when the process is painted in a certain light (CULT! CULT! CULT! HOLY FUCK! A CULT!) that people seem to start to get nervous.

5) The food

Day 1:
Breakfast: Muffins, donuts, bagels, coffee. happy.
Lunch: Bean wraps, salad, hummus wraps. meh.
Dinner: Tamales and Mexican rice. less happy.

Day 2:
Breakfast: Muffins, donuts, bagels, coffee. happy.
Lunch: Bean wraps, salad, hummus wraps. meh.
Dinner: Pizza. happy.

The thing to be taken away here, is that the food originally provided was all vegetarian or vegan, and some people didn't like that. So in response to their unhappiness, the organizers brought in a ton of pizza to try to remedy the situation. I would be surprised if the food next time is similar to this most recent event, or if the organizers even provide food at all.

For the record, nobody was forced to eat what was provided. There was plenty of time to go and get other food if people felt so inclined, and there were restaurants within walking distance. I should know, since I had outside food for two different meals. The second time, there was a group of about 15 of us, including random college students, and a couple celebrity judges, so it's not like the food was part of the "cult recruitment".

Don't bitch about free stuff. It's free. Don't like it? Get something else, and let the organizers know in a constructive manner that perhaps a wider selection would be helpful next time. Seems like they got the hint when they provided the pizza...


6) The Saturday Night Party

On Saturday afternoon, Allison Mack got up and told everyone that she and Nicki were going to be throwing a party that night. $10 to get in, unless you're an attendee of AcI, in which case it would be free. People asked a couple questions about how to get there, what was happening, etc, and the organizers even made an effort to set up carpooling so anyone who wanted (there's that free-will thing again!) to go had a way to get there.

Somebody posted earlier that in order to gain entrance to the party, you were required to provide your name and email address, two very sacred pieces of personal information. Yes, there was a table where you could fill out a card with your information. No, it was not required. I actually walked right by it (as did many other people), and eventually came back to fill out my information. By choice.

There were bars nearby the party, so if people didn't like where they were hanging out, there was an alternative across the street from the party. If someone had carpooled, they could simply hang out across the street until their ride was ready, or just get a taxi back to their hotel.


7) Wrap up, and some really cool shit that happened

I understand that people are going to believe what they want, and that a lot of you reading this right now probably think I drank the kool-aid and am just the mindless shell of the spitty jackass you used to know.

Rest assured, I'm not brainwashed. I'm not in a cult. I'm still the same me, but significantly happier after my experiences this weekend, only to become significantly sadder upon reading all of the ridiculousness that's been happening on this thread.

This weekend, I got to meet a bunch of cool people, make a lot of new friends, and even perform a couple times with a variety of drummers. Kudos to Blake (Lewis), Matt (Groove Society), Mike (Simply Human), and Charlie (Manteca) for being an absolute blast to share a stage with.

Special thanks to Clare, Keith, Kurt, and the entire staff involved with putting on AcI. I had an absolute blast, and I can't wait to get involved with the next one!

I think once people in this community stop looking for the "how are we getting fucked?" dramatic side of every new thing in a cappella, we'll be much better as a whole.

Just remember... if you don't know what's up, ask questions. If you don't like the answers, you're free to leave, but please, keep the poop in the toilet.
Last edited by davebaumgartner on Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby liquid5thcarl » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:26 pm

Carl Taylor Producer Transit - 2009 - Present Appalachian State Higher Ground - 1999-2002 carl[at]liquid5th[dot]com

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Postby mwhitehouse » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:49 pm

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Postby borski » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:57 pm

Here's that promised long post. Again, all opinions expressed herein are just that: opinions. Furthermore, they are my opinions. My group doesn't know I'm writing this, nor should it matter, as I am not speaking on behalf of my group.

With that said, we paid for all our own hotel rooms, gas, rental car, etc. Out of pocket. I'm appalled that a group that was paid to come to the festival acted as they did. That's not only disrespectful, it's a direct slap in the face. And it's sad, because these guys are great singers. We workshopped with them over the weekend, and they were down-to-earth, kickass singers who seemed like really cool people. This was true at the first ACI. Really, really sad.

Moving on, I'd like to extend a formal apology on behalf of at least myself (but I'm sure most people won't mind me generalizing it to the a cappella community at large) for the actions of the Crosbys to Allison, Nicki, Clare, Keith, and anyone else involved. With particular respect to Allison and Nicki, I'm incredibly sorry you felt the way you did and that should not happen. Regardless of whether anyone thinks you're in a cult or shady organization or whatever, respect is always called for. I'm the first to make fun of people and get made fun of for a lot of things, but there's always a line. As a great man once said, "Never forget the basic kindnesses." (Thanks BS, I was looking for a quote and you gave me one, haha) So yeah, please come back and don't let the actions of one group tarnish the good will and good nature of the a cappella community at large. I know you probably didn't need to hear that, what with Kurt and others talking to you already, but we're not all bad. 'Cept me, I'm kind of an ass. :)

Next, NXIVM. Are they a cult? Probably not. But I still have no idea what they do. There were definitely times at which I felt an uneasiness over the weekend. There was a lot of asking for personal information, a ton of videography, talk about another secret company at the party (10C), etc. Granted, 10C is probably just a startup still in stealth mode (I know far too much about startups, having failed at least once), but it doesn't help the secrecy surrounding NXIVM. We'd see a random piece of paper lying around that said "NXIVM Video Log" and all whisper about it. And nobody would mention NXIVM; it was the forbidden phrase, if you will. Because again, when dealing with a "secret cult," you want as little to do with it as you can. On the other hand, there were many things about the weekend that were great. The workshops actually were incredibly helpful to us, we have a much stronger feeling about many of our songs, the percussion workshops were great, the judging was incredibly useful, etc. Judged solely on an a cappella basis, I'd say the event was a success. We also definitely networked with a few other groups we're likely to keep in touch with.

Because I wasn't put off that much, if another event happened, yeah, I'd probably like to go. But the trend is saddening. I still know zero about NXIVM. There isn't much to be found on their website, and the only information I _can_ find is posted by Rick Ross. For the love of G-d, would someone please just freaking tell me what you do? And no, I'm not likely to ever take an intensive from them, ever. I'm pretty happy about my humanity, think I'm a pretty solid person and human being, and really don't need anyone else's help coming into my own. I don't think there's anything more important than happiness and satisfaction with friends, family, and the people you surround yourself with. Except possibly intellectual fulfillment, of which I get plenty.

So what does NXIVM do? Just tell me. Tell me you're not a cult. Tell me what you actually do.

Also, 10C. It sounds really interesting, and the idea for the company sounds like something I've spouted about in the past to friends, but there's no information to be found anywhere about it. This definitely does not help the veil of secrecy that shrouds ACI.

Again, I enjoyed the weekend, had fun, got a lot out of it. But secrecy will only hurt ACI now and in the future. Transparency about motives and such is the only way to get such a tight-knit community as this one to trust you. I had a good experience and would likely go back again, but as the years go on and nobody still has any idea what NXIVM does, that's likely to shift. So just tell us. I'm not calling you out, I'm asking for clarification. I'm asking for transparency. Don't take this offensively, as it's not meant to be offensive. It's just meant to try to get down to the truth of the matter.

So, takeaways:
1) Keith, Clare, etc.: What the hell does NXIVM do? Someone please freaking tell me and everyone else so we can stop making up our own stories.
2) Allison, Nicki: Sorry. We're not all like that. Don't hate us. We like you. Some of us think you're incredibly good actresses and have great motives and are good human beings. And the rest of us think you're really cute. Don't gauge our openness for your involvement on the actions of a few.
3) ACI: Stop shrouding yourself in secrecy. It only hurts your cause. If you're not trying to be secretive, know that you seem like you are to many people. You throw (very) good events that are well-attended and incredibly helpful to the vocal music community. It shouldn't be difficult getting people to trust you and I don't envy the position you're placed in, but here you are. In an age of privacy (granted, I'm a security guy) being encroached on everywhere, be the guiding light or whatever. Also, no more beans. :)
4) RARB: I love you.
5) Me: Do your god damned problem set and quit procrastinating by posting on RARB.

And with that: Borski out!
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Postby borski » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:16 pm

In the time it took me to write that, several other people had posted. With regards to what I want to know about NXIVM, I want something more substantial than "a group of teachers and students." Note that I'm not being a douchebag, but genuinely want to know what it is the company does. What is it's aim? How does it hope to accomplish that? I want specifics, not general blanket statements.

Man, I hate drama.

EDIT:
Also, I'd like to thank DB for his post. I agree with almost all of what he said, and hold very similar feelings. On the other hand, I'm not comfortable knowing only that I wasn't proselytized to by NXIVM this weekend. To be comfortable, I also need to know what the (implicit) parent organization does. Maybe it's just me, but I highly doubt that.
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Postby Chris » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:40 pm

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