A Cappella Innovations

Got something to say?

Postby billhare » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:05 pm

bstevens wrote:It's just that we've never seen one with so many ZEROES in it!


Neither of the two digits in my Social Security Number is a zero - I have no idea what you are talking about!

-B

Bill Hare Some dude who records and mixes people who can't play instruments. http://www.dyz.com

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Postby mcbc » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:20 pm

OK as much as I like the level of snark here, I feel similarly to Amy. Honestly people, hasn't anyone heard of the phrase "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye -- or loses an alto to a millionaire-funded cult"?

Seriously, as much as all these acts may have killed, rocked, owned, pwned, rCKd it's lending legitimacy to what could be something quite creepy. Best case scenario, this is all nothing and huzzah you all got to rub elbows with Blake Lewis. Worst case? Uh yikes much? ... And there will be an Associated Press reporter calling all of you investigating 'a cappella ties' to cult organization. Wire stories get started over much less. There is no reason to collect social security #'s. None.

Or maybe this is just a loss leader, shell-group that aggregates personal information to be used later ... just like any ol' spam e-mail.

Just sayin' ... and wondering why so many seem to be laughing this off so easily. OK with that said [/mommy post]

1. To whoever was wonder why Mr. Raniere was quoted on the "essence of a cappella" ... Well, apparently he fronted most of the dinero for the event. That's his license to mouth off, it happens all the time in business conferences why not a cappella.

2. Why get commentary from "non a cappella" people on a cappella? Well, for one it's a fresh perspective. Two, while a kudo from Deke [or any a cappella heavyweight] would carry significant weight within the community ... a nice word from say an Alison Mack or a Blake Lewis would get more recognition outside of the insiders' circle and it would probably be higher on say a "press page." It ain't just alphabetical. No offense. And no, I didn't mean to call you fat Deke.

3. Each group had its own 18-25 year old fairly attractive female coordinator? Really?
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Event Distinctions

Postby Innovations Participants » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:32 pm

I would like to agree with the points made so far in that I don't understand why everyone is so quick to laugh this off either. It doesn't matter how amazing the acts were (and they were amazing at both events). This is the point of a slow BUT STEADY attempt at forging this organization's way into a new demographic.

Everything I've read so far has been about NXIVM's history of holding "Executive Success Programs" for adults who want to get more out of their lives. These programs were obviously aimed at the 30+ demographic, mature adults who had full-time jobs, devoted spouses, and children, who didn't feel that they were getting enough out of life. What better way than to attend an ESP meeting to better yourself? I feel that NXIVM wanted to branch out, and reach an as-yet untapped group of people: gullible 18-25 year olds. Where should he start? College. The perfect group of people. We question everything around us all the time: our parents, our values, our belief in what we have come to know in life through higher education. Most of us have disposable incomes through loan refunds or parents who foot the bill. We live on our own for the first time and we want everything cool we can get our hands on that our parents would never let us have (credit cards!) . NXIVM knows all of this very well. I know that this sounds a little on the extreme side, but just think about how easy it would be for them to con even one unsuspecting person from X A Cappella group from X College/University to sign up for one of their intensives. How do they accomplish such a goal? Hmm..

Although this is only the second time this festival has been held, many of the same groups have been invited both times. Is this because there is a limited amount of talent in the a cappella community and they couldn't find anyone better? Of course not. Anyone who knows anything about a cappella knows that this is a huge, awesome extracurricular activity that exists all over the country (there are more than 5 a cappella groups at JUST my school) with thousands of various groups. Even if we were to consider travel difficulties, the New England/northeast area is rife with a cappella talent. I think their aim was to find a few select groups, invite them back every time, and attempt to change their attitudes a little bit at a time. The format changes alone should tip you off onto that, considering the dramatic differences between the two events.

EVENT 1 focused on the music, holding workshops that allowed ACTUAL A CAPPELLA TALENT to be involved in them. There was a lot of variety to each workshop, looking at a different aspect of MUSICAL/PERFORMING TALENT in each one. The last time we went, we did a workshop with the House Jacks and it was extremely productive. Workshops, while a very productive thing, were presented as one of two options (which we were able to choose ON OUR OWN FREE WILL): the other being the ability to watch the other groups perform at our leisure. The food was fine as far as I remember, and I didn't immediately run it to the garbage can to stop myself from looking at. The after-party was a celebration to a successful a cappella gathering. There was no indication that the after-party was selling any idea, product or movement. Just pizza, soda, and music to dance to. All events, whether or not they required attendance, were held in the one venue (the Egg), so a cappella groups could easily go to and from the hotel, which was within walking distance of wherever we needed to be.

EVENT 2 focused on a more spiritual direction of the songs we presented. Attendance in these workshops was mandatory, and we did not know how many of them there were, or how long we were going to be involved in them. They were run ONLY by members of either Simply Human (who, although this may sound offensive, I wasn't particularly impressed with), or some random woman who never even attempted to explain her authority in a cappella music. Even though several esteemed judges, Blake Lewis himself, and other talented performers of the evening shows were available, their resources were not even considered for these workshops. The elements themselves focused on emotions only. Even when groups tried to constructively discuss a musical or choreographical aspect of another groups' performance, it was immediately disregarded by the staff, and attention was brought back to either "emotions" or a "gift" we were to give the other group. The after-party that night was sponsored by 10C this time. It was held at a shady warehouse in downtown Troy, which isn't the safest area to begin with. There was no mention of a cappella this time. Instead, our attention was to be focused on Allison and Nicki's new awesome social network called 10C. What this was supposed to be all about was extremely vague, and even the speech we were forced to listen to about it gave no clear answers (the website is www.y10c.com, but, as par for the course, you can't get any information whatsoever until you give them personal information). I also want to point out that this venue, as well as the hotels that the groups were put up in, were extremely remote with respect to the location of the Egg. It was not possible to walk to any of these destinations. This gave me the feeling of isolation; once I was at the Egg for the day, there wasn't a point in time where I could conveniently return to my hotel room to rest for a minute. Once I had arrived to the 10C party, I couldn't easily go back to my hotel room without coordinating our entire group, and taking a 20 minute drive to get there. This event was held more on their terms, organizing things in ways that were extremely inconvenient for us as far as comfortability was concerned, and pointing our attention to the "emotional core" of our music, rather than the performance and musical criticism it could have benefitted from.

I know that this was a long post, but i wanted to point out the distinct differences I, (and not that I want to speak for them) and the rest of my group felt between these two events. Bottom line, isolation and questioning our emotional existence were the two running themes of this weekend, and I didn't appreciate it one bit. Many of you will think that I am exaggerating, that I'm reading into miniscule details, but I really do believe that these events won't hesitate to turn up the heat each time, changing yet another aspect of it that will alienate participants from their ideals and realms of comfortability even more. If the a cappella community cares about the many college groups that have been and will continue to participate in this activity, they should take a more aggressive part in learning about the background behind this organization, and exactly what Keith Raniere and his cronies benefit from all of this.
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One more thing

Postby Innovations Participants » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:41 pm

PS: isn't this strange?

Several members of Simply Human, Nicki Clyne, and even Keith Raniere himself set up RARB usernames, commented on their satisfaction with their first ACI event (which was more of a let-me-pat-myself-on-the-back-in-front-of-you-all type thing), and never once posted again or even bothered to see what has been going on in this close-knit community? If they are so interested in a cappella music and devoted to its craft, why aren't they posting commentary and getting involved on this website? After all, it's a place where we can all come together and share our passion and love of the "human instrument."
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Re: One more thing

Postby livingfiction » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:32 pm

Innovations Participants wrote:PS: isn't this strange?

Several members of Simply Human, Nicki Clyne, and even Keith Raniere himself set up RARB usernames, commented on their satisfaction with their first ACI event (which was more of a let-me-pat-myself-on-the-back-in-front-of-you-all type thing), and never once posted again or even bothered to see what has been going on in this close-knit community? If they are so interested in a cappella music and devoted to its craft, why aren't they posting commentary and getting involved on this website? After all, it's a place where we can all come together and share our passion and love of the "human instrument."


If these forums are such a sacred location for the community, why don't you post on your primary account with your name in your signature so you can stand behind your posts?

This event was different than the previous one, we've established that. There are some directions it took that weren't understood, or enjoyed, also effectively communicated. So yeah, I bet they're going to be looking at this feedback for the next event, so how about we use the feedback thread and offer some constructive suggestions?

Hotel accommodations? Name one other a cappella festival that PAID for your room? You want more accessibility to the egg, foot the bill yourself. I was housed 20 minutes from the EGG, but I stayed there at their expense, so I'll just say thank you.

Workshops being mandatory is one thing I agree with you on though, I like the fluidity of having choices. I do think that attendees should be attending one of the events that's happening, but I like having options too.

Simply Human hasn't always impressed, but considering what they are, and how long they've existed I think they've done well, and if you were there for the Sunday night show you can attest that they were very impressive.

Still I want more emotional connection between the performers and their music. Watching FORK do "Leave Me Alone" is an extraordinary experience. And Phillip Hamilton's passion is a big part of his show for me. We all have emotions, and we all have the experience as an audience that qualifies us to comment about that. I know I see it in the models I work with. Whereas choreography, showmanship, arrangements and all that might be better addressed by Brojo, Kurt, Ben, or one of the professionals who were on the panels. I don't know, but it seems logical to me. I'm sure your group's VP is just great, but I'd much prefer feedback from DB.

The Saturday Night after-party was thrown by ACI the first event. For ACI2 it was thrown by Allison, Jono, and Nicki, to exhibit their new company. There was nothing secret about this, Allison did the inviting, it wasn't at the EGG, because the EGG was rented out. I know the two were completely separate because I was hired to work at both events, and was hired by different people. There's nothing odd about that.
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Postby dekesharon » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:35 pm

Ah, controversy!

First of all, let me say that I have plenty of thoughts on this.

But opinion is secondary.

Let's take a 10,000 foot view:

* The AI folks are new members of the a cappella community, and have joined the RARB forum, having posted before. I have no doubt they're reading every word carefully, at least those of this thread.

* They've been "called out," for lack of a better term. What are their motives? What is the reason for their event? Why spend tens of thousands of dollars twice a year on a cappella conferences that are free to college students (and others? Can high schoolers come? Adults?).

* As such, they have no reasonable choice but respond. Heck - I feel an obligation to respond, and I wasn't even there (the House Jacks were invited to perform again, but I already had a Hawaiian vacation planned. Yes, I'm posting from Oahu's North Shore. Brief rain = RARB fun!)

I wish them no ill will, and have found them to all be very nice people. But this runs deeper: people are calling into question their motives, and need answers to feel safe. Answers that our conjecture won't answer.

Keith is obviously a very intelligent guy (if not the world's most intelligent... Ben Stevens is), and as such must see his position. To not respond is to invite ongoing, increasing assaults against the integrity of his organization and motives, where the only reason for silence would appear to be the inability to properly answer them without raising further alarm.

The a cappella community is a small one, and the major players are few. Significant alarm could easily be raised within these circles that would make it difficult for AI to continue their events unabated. I don't say this as a threat, but rather reality: college groups talk and share information freely and easily nowadays with the internet et al. To let these charges mount is to invite a permanent mark that it would be very difficult to remove.

There are plenty of things that could be said. But silence is just not an option. It's not good enough to pretend these comments and concerns are beneath him, as this court of public opinion is a very open, educated one. People here are fair, curious, caring.

So... let's hear it!

(hopefully this post will be seen as a call for open discussion on all sides. It would be great to hear from a variety of people involved.)

P.S. Thanks for calling me fat, MSNBC

- Deke Sharon • 800.579.9305 • http://www.dekesharon.com

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Re: One more thing

Postby H.F. » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:38 pm

Innovations Participants wrote:PS: isn't this strange?...


Yeah, it is strange.

EDIT: I've censored the rest of my post, as it was pointed out to this hothead that not everything in life is black and white, and that I probably don't know shit. And I have to say - the man made great points.
Last edited by H.F. on Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sparkleytone » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:26 pm

EASY:

1) Anonymously throwing grenades in a crowded room.
2) Complaining about things that are being provided as a service to clients. We don't serve everyone food at SoJam.
3) Critiquing the minutia of large scale events that one has never attempted on even a 1/10th scale.
4) Tearing down the flashy new guy in town who has a ton to offer and is bringing some real visibility/growth to an insular niche.
5) Transferring the questionable activities of a person's beliefs or activities to something wholly different that has many high profile people from that niche involved at a planning/administrative level.


HARD:

1) Planning, organizing, and executing an event on the scale of a SoJam or A Cappella Innovations.
2) Recovering from the effects of being borderline slandered online, be it through anonymous channels or otherwise.
3) Choosing to judge something based on its actual merits and deficits, as opposed to its perceived ones.
4) Watching your friends get indirectly crapped on by cowards who feel it necessary to anonymously tear down something they have contributed to and sacrificed for.
5) Realizing that most college students still have a somewhat naive outlook on the way the world actually works, and applying an appropriately-sized grain of salt to situations like this.

Nothing ever worth doing was easy.

---
On a personal note, this thread evokes some of the very same feelings I had a few years ago when we were putting our blood sweat and tears into making SoJam happen every year and growing the AACI at the same time. I remember vividly some tense moments and some (looking back) rather inappropriate implications being made toward us, so forgive me if I require something more concrete than the "information" provided.
Brent Stephens, BAMF
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Postby siobahn » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:41 pm

Hello there.

I felt compelled to post something because I feel, frankly, saddened at the reactions and the responses to the A Cappella Innovations experience; not so much by those who were not there (as you don't have any first hand data and I can therefore understand your concerns), but by those that WERE. The way I see it, there is a bunch of us putting ourselves out there trying to put on a kick-ass a cappella festival, and while there may have been some missteps, people are choosing to focus on things that have nothing to do with the festival itself.

Meaning: For those of you who were there, constructive feedback about how the festival is run is welcome and encouraged! But to lump in your feedback with some concerns about people's affiliations with an organization such as NXIVM is a non-sequitur and therefore unnecessary. That said, yes, I AM affiliated with NXIVM and in fact work for the organization; it is nothing that I have ever hidden from anyone that I have come into contact with in A Cappella Innovations and I have shared when asked and when it was appropriate (i.e. when people ask me what I do for a living, blah blah blah....)l in fact, it is something I am actually quite proud of. I have known Keith for 8 years and consider him to be a good friend; indeed, one of the most modest, unassuming, and humane individuals I have ever met. I believe that his intentions are nothing but good and pro-active towards the a cappella community. For those of you who have seen my group perform, I also truly believe that my capacity to be an expressive performer is due to the work I have done with NXIVM. Over the past two festivals, I have worked closely with many of the college groups, and for those of you who have spoken with me, I think you can vouch for the fact that while I may be a crazy rock star on stage (or I try hard anyway!), I am off-stage just another person who loves a cappella and singing and, most importantly, working with people to inspire them.

The goal of A Cappella Innovations, really and truly, is to promote a cappella and the joy of singing. We want to make our endeavors as successful as possible towards this goal, so we will work hard to make it so. But for people to scare themselves or feel suspicious of motives is unnecessary and, I think, an unfortunate commentary on the world and how distrustful people are of one another. It is unfortunate that they are willing to read paid media sensationalism and choose that as an authority over their own experience - or worse, to change their experience retroactively to fit what they have read. After all, up until the second day of the festival, none of these allegations were true. I personally taught the workshops; I was there and was witness to the groups' experience. I would like to call upon the groups that I participated with and say to my face that what I saw, live and in person, was not true. I know what MY motives are and they were purely to help groups unite and express more genuinely.

I hope that we can work to resolve this so that we can all work together. I think everyone here wants the same thing - to promote something we love - and that is nothing to be fearful or suspicious of.

If anyone who knows me personally would like to talk to me, I'd love that and would welcome it.

Thank you to everyone who was there, because I had a great weekend and I look forward to more!

Siobahn Hotaling
Educational Coordinator
A Cappella Innovations
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Re: One more thing

Postby liquid5thcarl » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:46 pm

H.F. wrote:
Innovations Participants wrote:PS: isn't this strange?...



Isn't it also strange that a collegiate group would have the gall to post in a thread about an event at which they threw their own feces around?


Yeah............wow!

Seriously, don't you guys ever watch South Park?

"Throwing doo doo is bad, mmmkay."

Carl Taylor Producer Transit - 2009 - Present Appalachian State Higher Ground - 1999-2002 carl[at]liquid5th[dot]com http://www.liquid5th.com/

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Postby playdeep » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:24 pm

After all the planning that went into the event I was hoping to take a short reprieve to get back to some other endeavors. It appears that some posting will be necessary to help clarify the event. I will post more on my thoughts later when I have a moment to fully process my thoughts. I will leave the clarifications of Clare and Keiths motives up to them and I know they will post soon enough.

I will say as someone who was very involved in planning both events from start to finish and as a judge that this event is meant to help acappella grow and edify and uplift the attendees as well as the coordinators. I have spent much time personally with Keith and have worked daily with Clare to make these events effective. I know personally of their love for the art form of singing and know they are sincere in their interest to assist in its proliferation all over the world. They are interested in anything that builds community. They are committed to correcting things that were not enjoyed and making the event better each time we put it on.

I also have gotten to know Nicki and Ally very well personally over the past months having personal email, IM and phone contact with them. Never have they done or said anything that would make me ever be concerned that they ever had anything but a personal desire to reach out and help others. The fact that they were willing to open their lives and themselves to our community when privacy is a rare thing in the Music and Film business, as well as give of their time, only to be disrespected is shameful. What incentive do we give others who might want to stand behind the banner of vocal music if we treat them in this way? We complain about the world not getting vocal music and not being willing to listen to it and yet we reject the very celebrities who might be able to elevate the mass public's awareness of it. And to those of you whom think there is nothing that we can learn about art and expression from established film, dance and directing experts----you cant be serious. If we truly want to improve, how can we not be willing to learn from those who have other viewpoints they are willing to share that can help us be better performers of music?

There were certainly missteps that were made in this learning experience of putting on large events (as there have been with every other series of events I have been part of planning). I think that choices were made that might make those who are not willing to understand feel that there could be some questions to be asked. I do think that Clare and Keith are open to critique and will make necessary changes to ensure the event is a continual success.

I will post more of my thoughts soon enough. I think it is ok to ask questions but I do believe that the motives are good and that AI and its coordinators have valuable things to share with the community.

If Keith is so nuts why would Virgin stand behind him. Why would Richard Branson donate money to AI for us to put on an event. As someone who is also heavily involved in Sojam and other events in the US, I could only hope that Branson would be so willing to assist these other events. If Keith and Clare are able to get people like Mr Branson to notice and recognize the good in vocal music, I feel it wise for us to look at what we would miss out on if we chose to reject their being a part of our community.
Kurt Walker
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Improvements to be made

Postby cmmd20 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:00 pm

As a participant of last weekend's A Cappella Innovations, I'd like to list the following improvements to be made for upcoming festivals of this sort:

Make all participants aware of the agenda for the festival:
- There needs to be a set schedule for when workshops take place, when groups have time to warm up, relax, go back to the hotel, sound check, meet and work with other groups, etc. This seems pretty basic, but this was something that was lacking this weekend and made myself and the rest of my group uneasy with the proceedings of the weekend.
- If the weekend is going to focus on "emotional journeys" through performance, tell groups beforehand! This would remedy any uncertainties of sharing private information. Also, I think my group would have focused more on expressing emotions in rehearsals prior to this weekend, and not so much on technical "a cappella" conventions. This would have made groups feel more prepared for the workshops if they knew what to expect.

Give enough information about sponsors/donors/affiliate companies:
- When a concert or event is sponsored by Pepsi, you know that it's sponsored by Pepsi. This was not the case for ACI. There is no mention of NXIVM, or 10C on the ACI website (I still have no freakin clue what 10C is). This information needs to be made public prior to the conference so groups can research the contributors beforehand and make an educated decision on whether or not they want to participate. Groups should not have to google the founder of ACI in their hotel room after hearing rumors of a cult (true story).

All judges need to be invited to participate in all workshops!
- I think every other group that attended this weekend would agree that the most beneficial part of ACI was the judging. Groups were given an hour to perform their set and critiqued by some of the best and brightest in our small a cappella niche. I can only imagine how much more each group would benefit with more one on one time with all the judges.

Provide dietary accommodations for everyone:
- While it may seem trivial, people take comfort in food. If people are uneasy as it is, a change in diet will throw them off even more. I appreciate the sentiment of providing food, but if they wish to continue this, I think a change could be made. Hey, we're college students, burgers and wings would be more than alright!

I hope some of these comments will foster conversation for improvements that can be made so these festivals can exist to improve the art form that we all love.

Collin
Collin MacDonald
Business Manager- A Completely Different Note
www.CDNuconn.com
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Postby Allison Mack » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:05 pm

I was one of the judges for the weekend as well as being one of the hosts of the party on the evening of the 5th. I am somewhat of a celebrity having over 6 million viewers per week and I have to say I am pretty experienced when it comes to dealing with large groups of people in festival like settings. I too had a really weird experience this weekend, but it had nothing to do with the festival A Cappella Innovations, but more around the people at “innovations.” I know some of the things that have been posted about the weekend and NXIVM in regards to both A Cappella innovations and my company 10c came from a specific group. I had a very unfortunate interaction with this group at the party. I must say if anyone was freaked out about aggressive and “dangerous” behavior I would greatly urge them to look at their own behavior before pointing fingers at others. Although the men that approached us at the party claimed to be asking innocent questions, it felt very threatening, intrusive and was extremely physically inappropriate. I have never had such an ugly experience in my career.

I have had one other extremely bad experience within the span of my 21 year career: In a public place, where I know I need to be guarded, I was verbally abused. What happened this past weekend was worse for it was in a supposedly safe environment. I gave members of the a cappella community an opportunity to know me personally and instead of meeting people who were all dedicated to song, I met some seemingly dedicated to hate—and hateful in a way I have never encountered. I have always wanted all people to know me personally but because of my role in life it is difficult.

My partner and I were surrounded by 6 large, angry men who were not interested in hearing the answers to their questions, but only interested in proving their suspicions correct. Even though they claimed to simply want to better understand what was happening and what our company and the weekend was about, it felt clear to me they were not interested in hearing anything other than confirmations that we are a company with negative and malicious intent. I am all about critical thinking, in fact that is one of the main components my company stands for, but this felt like a guilty until proven innocent interrogation rather than a critical question and answer session. As their voices rose and they physically closed in a male friend came and whispered in my ear, “Are you alright?” The group immediately pointed to the interaction claiming it was weird, much like a witch-hunt. I guess if you are looking to prove things are weird you can with anything.

It is so sad to me one of the spaces I thought I would be the most safe to just have a good time and hang out with people who love people—an a cappella festival and party with a bunch of college students—would become such a forum. Out of all the festivals I have ever attended and all the wild sci-fi fans I have come into contact with, I have never felt as violated as I did that evening. I have been in situation with obsessive fans and people that would be considered a threat, but I always felt that their intentions were simply misguided. My experience of this group of men felt intentionally destructive and I think they proved this with the behavior they exhibited later that evening at their hotel. I am sorry, but hosting a weekend where students can come together to sing and share the love of music should not have as a possibility an aggressive interrogation followed by the destruction of property. It seemed to me this group of students came with the intent to disassemble a festival that had no intention other than to help musicians and artists to improve their skills and better their craft. All and all I am disappointed, but not totally disheartened. I met some truly amazing students this weekend and I am leaving this whole experience cautiously optimistic and excited by the beauty of a cappella. I am new to this community and I recognize it is comprised of people who are very supportive in their love of creating. I hope to see this community handle this situation in a way that is upholding and dignified rather than immature and petty. It seems as though the community is very interested in growing and including fans outside of the already established group. I am someone who is outside the community but very interested in supporting the art. That being said, I look forward to witnessing the way all of this is handled because I can promise that you are not making any fans with this behavior.
Thanks for your time!
Allison Mack
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Postby maykish » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:31 pm

Wahhh The free food wasn't goood enough!
Wahhh The free hotel wasn't convenient enough!
Wahhh The free weekend of concerts, workshops and parties didn't have a good enough schedule!

Sorry, but as an outsider who did not attend this event, and has no personal ties to the event, you have a hard time getting sympathy from me. No one was forcing you to stay, if you truly felt threatened by the cult rumor circulating, leave, walk out the door. Don't shit on an organization (literally, and in a public forum) for failing to provide a Club Med of an a cappella event.
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Postby cg929 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:41 pm

Despite the poor decisions of one group who attended AI, other groups HAVE come forward and discussed their uneasiness with the whole situation. The members of NXIVM are purposefully highlighting the negative actions of one group to dissuade other groups from stating their discomfort. The original purpose of this thread was to raise awareness/questions about the weird happenings at the event, and they have done so.
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